Fantasy World League Forum

Controversial pick this one.

The computer named S Deke Cooper of Raleigh-Durham as the AFC Defensive Player of the Year.

The Skyhawks had the worst defense in the league and were 17th against the pass.

Cooper had a fine year with 2 interceptions, a fumble recovery and 124 tackles to lead the league.

I mean you could say the other DB's for Raleigh were so bad Cooper played brilliantly in a poor secondary, the computer gives 'points' to each player throughout the season and then the players with the most hidden points are named All-FWL or given an award, eg Offensive Player of the Year.

A few years the choice has been strange (Many All-FWL players chosen by the computer are wrong) but is Cooper a right/wrong choice ?

I personally think because offenses are so great at the moment there arent as many brilliant AFC Defensive players this year as previous seasons, the sack leader Bastian Lano had just 14 sacks, however Montreal S Brian Russell had a brilliant 6 interceptions which has been the highest in a season for a long time.

However i dont think Cooper got the award given by the computer just because of his high tackle number, Cooper is a standout player and many times in the past in the NFL you've had a player who plays amongst worst players be named All-Pro etc.  On the other hand the NFL often awards a Pro Bowl spot to a player who doesnt deserve it, a few years back G Larry Allen was named All-Pro when he missed about 10 games of the season with injury !

99% of the time i keep what the computer has chosen when it comes to the main awards, i change the All-FWL team at times because the computer totally gets confused with this one putting EFC players on the AFC team and strange things like that.

Anyway what do you think, give it a vote

Tricky one - I'd be tempted to say "No", as the Skyhawks D was not exceptional and being the bext player on a poor team does not necessarily make someone a great player. But, we only have the stats to go on and Cooper's stats are pretty good. You can only really notice how good a defensive player is by watching the game, and we don't "watch" FWL games. You could say that the computer does!

I don't think the ranking of the SKyhawk's D should matter - didn't players like Barry Sanders and OJ Simpson gets tons of awards, although the offenses they played on were never ranked very highly?

Sometimes in the NFL a great defensive player has the stats to back it up - look at Derrick Brooks a couple of season ago - 5 defensive TDs, and the keystone of the great Tampa Bay defense. An obvious choice. Players like Lawrence Taylor and Ray Lewis can totally dominate a game and force offenses into completely changing their gameplans. It isn't really possible for a FWL player to do this, as we can never determine what each player is doing on each play - if they don't make the tackle, we have no idea whether they performed their assignment or not. Sometimes great defensive players just don't have the stats to match - thinking of players like Deion Sanders, where teams simply avoided his side of the field. So, his stats say he didn't get many interceptions, but was still a great DB.

So, I'd say let the computer chose the defensive player of the year and go with it. Sometimes it will give strange results, but that's life.

really difficult to decide.

i mean everyone of us could say that there are many players similar to him but the allmighty computer always has decided and sometimes he did wrong and somtimes he did wright.

i won´t say "yes" or "no" in this vote but i think that it is just fair to nominate someone who is not a sack-machine. And to be honest: He is SO MANY tackles ahead of the rest (+25%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) so that is a clear indication for me that he was playing superbly.

On the other hand: 6 INTs is fantastic as well. I would vote for co-MVP for the Monteal-player.....

That is why it is so difficult to vote. But "if in doubt, let the computer decide" i would say.

But its a chicken and egg situation.

Cooper might have so many tackles as hes so bad teams run at him constantly as they know they can bowl him over, he'll make a ton of tackles but maybe 8 yards downfield etc.  But its a bit like Machine QB Danny Wuerffel, not many tds's this year but when your ground game scores about 20 td's on the ground then the offense is doing its job.  Perhaps its easier for Montreal to ram them in from the 3 yard line instead of passing it.

Like Andrew says many players in the past dont always put up huge numbers, Raiders CB Charles Woodson is still pretty good but during his Pro Bowl days he hardly had any interceptions as no teams throw his way.

I was very surprised how well S Brian Russell played for the Machine this year, i hadnt heard of him before this, did he have 6 ints because teams threw at him all the time as he was so bad or did he have 6 because he was so great ? Funnily enough the real Brian Russell had a lot of ints for the Vikes last year and led the league but who wanted him this year in FA ? No one so hes gonna sign a low deal.  Reminds me of former Falcons S Scott Case who i think had 11 or 12 interceptions years ago, he wasnt a good safety but because teams threw his way so much as they picked on him his stats looked better than they really should have been.

But like Andrew says as none of us watch the games you cant easily tell if Cooper is a brilliant safety or a dire one.  But the game does give 'points' to players throughout the season and i presume Coopers points were the highest amongst defensive players in the AFC.  There is a tool somewhere to look at the points per person so perhaps its worth trying to find this, it'll probably show Cooper had xxx points this season as he made so many big plays all year so the computer rates him that highly.

Again its a tricky one but apart from All-FWL teams i've practically always kept what the computer says are the Players of the Year.  Some seasons they will be controversial, other times it'll be plain obvious.

Like i say its a chicken and egg situation, put Dan Marino on the Bengals team of the early 90's and watch him fail, put Emmitt Smith behind the Eagles offensive line in the late 80's when Randall Cunningham was running for his life and watch him stagger to just 500 yards rushing.

I'm sure the decision was very tight but i think S Deke Cooper who incidentaly is the first ever safety awarded this, is a worthy winner.

Guys:
After reading Ronnies mail carefully i decided that i really share his views bit by bit.

So i change my opinion and vote(d) for a "Yes, he should be kept" due to the ideas Ronnie spread in his mail.

Sorry David, but there are cons and pros. I defenitely hope that you and your team will get something back in return during the playoffs or on different occations.

Paul,

You are the commish.. not the computer... and one assumes us Humans know better than the computers.

Allowing 4 DL on the same team to win all 4 slots on last years Pro-Bowl Team was bad enough....  Allowing a HB who plays 12 games at HB then the last 2 at FB to win the FB Pro-Bowl slot is just as bad, but to allow a guy with 120 tackles and 2 picks to win this when his defense was worst in the league, and # 17 against the pass takes the cake.
 
I am not arguing for any of my guys inparticular, but you are saying Cooper is better than Brian Russell, just because he had more tackles?  Russell lead the league with 6 picks, had 49 tackles and a sack, and Montreal finished #1 in defense and against the pass.
 
Michael Landry had 39 tackles, 13.0 sacks and Montreal was #1 in defense, #1 in PA, and #2 against the run.
 
Ridiculous if you ask me.

I admit the choices for the All-FWL team at the end of the year are often messed up, that HB/FB switch i should have made myself as i often do edit those teams but just because of time i didnt last season.

However i havent from what i can remember changed the players who won the awards though.

I still dont see why you find it so ridiculous.

Check any All Pro team from the NFL, why did Terrell Owens make it last year when he wasnt the top WR and didnt play in the last 4 or 5 games ?  Why didnt Mushin Muhammad be named the best WR in the league etc ?

Yes Landry had better stats than Washington but that doesnt mean that much.

Michael Landry might have had better stats because as you can see from your defensive rankings he was playing with 10 other amazing players.  Washington might have been playing on a weaker d-line, might not have had the benefit of playing next to 2 or 3 great d-linemen and so had to do it all himself.

The computer rates players per game and Washington probably had many more big plays throughout the season.  Every season whoever the computer picks as Offensive and Defensive Players of the year, theyre not always the players who had the most tackles or sacks, its like an all round type of vote.

In Season 11 Montreal DT Michael Landry was voted AFC Defensive Player of the year, he had 47 tackles and 13 sacks.

I had 3 great D-linemen that year...

DE Word had 31 tackles and 16 sacks
DE Sutton had 40 tackles and 12 sacks
DT Rich Cole had 37 tackles and 14 sacks

Why werent they named AFC Def player of the year ?  My defense was ranked 1st in the league !!!! Word was ranked 2nd leading sacker in the league, Cole 5th and Landry just 10th.  Sacramento won just one less game than you.  Yet Michael Landry who played on the 17th best defense that year (next to last) who ranked just 9th against the run, LAST against the pass (perhaps no great pass rush ?), Landry was voted AFC Defensive Player of the Year ?

AND LB Brett Fields was named to the All-FWL team AND S Dorian Brew from Montreal voted the top safety for the AFC ? !?!?!

How come ?  Fields was a member of the next to worst defense that year, Brew also a member and a member of the leagues worst secondary if you look purely at stats.

No one moaned that year, to me Fields had a great year and a lot of it is like Frankfurt, you were leading by a lot that season so opposing teams got a lot of mop up yards at the end of games.  Brew had a great season but was ranked 3rd in the league for AFC tacklers so why didnt Raleigh S Parris make the S1 position instead of S3 on the All-FWL AFC team ?

Why was Michael Landry voted AFC Player of the year when his defense ranked 17th ????

Come on lets stop all this bickering, theres probably many other cases like this over the years. 

You must know all because a player leads his d-linemen in tackles and sacks doesnt mean hes the best in the business.  S Brian Russell of the Vikings who had double digit ints in 2003 when he led the league wasnt sought after in Free Agency this year. Raiders CB Charles Woodson wasnt named All-Pro in the past despite just making 1 or 2 ints a year.

Frankfurt had the 12th best defense this year (last against the pass) but thats mainly because teams were playing catchup against Frankfurt and Frankfurt had a 20 point lead. 

But to sum it up.....

Season 11

Montreal 10-4, Sacramento 9-5 (just one game difference)

DT Michael Landry
AFC Defensive Player of the Year
10th in the league with sacks (or joint 5th), joint 4th in the AFC in sacks with 13.
Montreal Defense: 17th in the league, 9th against the run, 18th against the pass

Landry 47 tackles, 13 sacks

DT Mark Word
(5th straight season of 10+ sacks, surely opposing teams look for him as the strength and double team him)
2nd in the league in sacks, 1st in the AFC with 16 sacks
Sacramento Defense: 1st in the league, 11th against the run, 2nd against the pass

Word 31 tackles, 16 sacks.

Surely as Words defense was ranked 1st and beat Montreals defense against the run and pass and he had 3 more sacks than Landry, yes Landry had 16 more tackles but is that enough to say he was the better DT that season than Word ? And also enough to warrant Landry as the AFC Defensive Player of the Year over Word ?  Yes Montreal won the FWL Bowl that year and beat Sacramento in the AFC Championship but as you know the All-FWL nominations and awards are based purely on the regular season.  Veteran DE Rich Cole that year for me had 15 sacks and 37 tackles yet didnt get a mention.

All because someone leads the league in tackles or sacks doesnt mean thats why theyre voted MVP, Cooper had a brilliant year and also led the league but his play week in week out was why he was named the AFC Defensive Player of the Year

If the computer's choice were to be over-ruled, how would the Players of the Year be decided? There is no objective way of deciding, especially for defensive players. Should it be the best player on the best defence? Or the standout player on an average defence? Or the top-tackler on a dodgy defence? The game stats can only tell half the story.

If we overrule this decision, do we change any others? In my opinion, the decision should stand. At the end of the day, it doesn't affect the game in any way, it's just a bit of fun (as Keith Barrett would say).

You are all missing the boat.

Defensive Player of the Year...

Was he the best defensive player out on the field?  He apparently was good enough at tackling the opposing team, however, if he has 120 tackles, and RDU was worst on defense and #17 against the pass, that means he left ALOT of Receivers open.

I am beating a dead horse, so forget it.

I don't think anyone's missing the boat. It looks like everyone agrees it is a strange choice and probably the wrong choice. But, in the absence of an alternative way of chosing, which would create more problems than it would solve, I believe the computer's choice should stick.

I do get your point but then again you could say the other 3 Raleigh-Durham DB's are so terrible Cooper was the one standout on a poor Raleigh secondary.

Looking at the All-FWL team the computer has chosen it has two Montreal safeties and a Montreal CB.  One of the other CB's chosen was my CB Derrick Tatum Jnr who was at CB2 all year but looks like had a decent season judging by the computer scores.

But Ohio were #1 against the pass but not one DB selected for that team ?  Why has Montreal got 3 when their secondary is rated 4th (2nd in the AFC) yet Ohio has none ?  That could be because Ohio were last against the run but 1st against the pass so teams didnt bother passing on the Ohio secondary.

But as for Cooper i dont think its that weird, i just think Cooper was the one standout on a very weak Raleigh secondary.  Like i keep saying the computer gives each player values throughout the season after every game.  The All-Pro teams are messed up (some weird bug putting AFC players on EFC teams or the computer not realising that a HB changed to FB in the last week of the season is then named All-FWL FB) but like i keep saying i think the decisions the computer has done for MVP's, Offensive and Defensive players is pretty spot on.

And even if this pick is controversial its just like real life as sometimes in the past many people dont agree with the awards etc.

For all we know no teams threw his way but because Raleigh CB's were getting burnt he had to make up for the mistakes of those CB's and tackle the WR's after they blow past the poor Raleigh CB's.  Thats one way of looking at it.  Its like Ronnie Lott playing with 3 dire secondary players.  The Raiders were ranked as one of the worst teams on defense last year but Charles Woodson still had a good year (not great but a decent year), it wasnt his fault his opposing CB Phillip Buchanon was getting burnt week in week out, a rookie safety couldnt tackle and the pass rush of Oakland did nothing so opposing QB's had all day to throw.

Tim Brown wasnt always the leading WR in the NFL but for 8 years he led his team in receiving and he never had a #2 WR catch more than 50 passes until Jerry Rice arrived.  So year in year out Brown had to do it alone, he might not have put up huge huge numbers but so many WR's back then had a 1000 yard partner to take the pressure of them.  Considering the QB's Brown had as well (Schroeder, Marinovich, Hostetler, George, Hollas and others) he did an amazing job and i think Brown was much better than some 1500 yard WR like Issac Bruce who had Torry Holt opposite him and Kurt Warner throwing for 4500 yards a year and an amazing rushing attack.  Brown did this with a poor running back at times, not a great o-line, no decent WR opposite him and some dodgy TE's.

I'm only going on about Brown as thats the way i see S Deke Cooper.  He has to do it on his own but despite some bad player around him he succeeded.